Matt : 0:04

Hi, and welcome to the Making Passenger podcast. I'm Matt.

Tom : 0:08

And I'm Tom.

Matt : 0:09

This week we're very happy to be talking to Dr. Felicity Rice, portfolio holder for Environment and Climate Change at Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council.

Tom : 0:17

I've had a few opportunities to hear Felicity - or Fizz - speak at meetings before lockdown. And I've always been really impressed with her vision for the conurbation. I'm really looking forward to speaking with her today.

Matt : 0:27

Hope you enjoy! Thank you for joining us today, Felicity really appreciate you coming on the show.

Felicity : 0:40

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Matt : 0:42

So let's start back at the beginning, if you think back to when you signed up to be a counsellor, and then you look at where you are now is it everything you expected to be? Are you getting the results that perhaps you hoped for? And obviously we're now in a COVID-19 world, how's that affecting the things that you're working on?

Felicity : 1:00

Yeah, well, today actually, it has been pointed out is the anniversary of when the cabinet was announced a year ago. So it's quite appropriate to be thinking about this. Today, I really struggled to remember what my expectations were, before I became a counsellor like this has just taken over my life, I suppose. And it's hard to remember what it was like before, but I'm always, I'm generally a very optimistic person. So I probably had extremely high expectations of what I could achieve if I was elected as a councillor, just for Oakdale. But then I've also been elected, picked, to be part of the cabinet. And so that's a whole other role additional to being a counsellor for Oakdale. And so there's two separate aspects to that space. Thinking about it over the last year. There is so much more that I want to do within Oakdale itself. But one of the big things is how we all move around. So that affects every single ward. But also there's strategic aspects that are part of my Cabinet work. So I had high expectations when I came in about being able to get everybody onto their bikes and walking and moving away from cars and using buses. And that has felt really slow, I suppose. The conversations have been really great. And we've got some amazing people in the council, they're really wanting to make this happen. But the cultural issues of like how we have all lived over the last 10, 20, 30 years and how people have got used to it, really, it requires quite a lot of people to be really brave about making some changes and not just carrying along quite slowly, as we all have done. But that does link into the the recent public health emergency with COVID-19 in that we have been forced into this sudden change that has impact every aspect of our life. But I do find that interesting now in terms of, people have been exposed to how they have managed to change their life, and how we have all managed to do things differently. It's also exposed sort of extreme inequality, and differences in how we all live our lives. And so some people have been able to improve their lives during this COVID-19 emergency and others have really, really struggled. But in principle it has shown where we thought it was difficult to get big changes in the past, we now see that big changes are possible. And so that makes it an even more exciting time as a counsellor. The other things are that when I came in, and Greta Thunburg had been protesting for and explaining the facts about climate emergency for the last, sort of, what would it have been? About 18 months now, I think that seems longer but so when I was first elected, and that was sort of less than a year and and then the Extinction Rebellion work has also really sort of highlighted how we can't just carry on doing everything how we used to. And, then BCP declared a climate emergency. And so those things have been just sort of wonderful for me to be part of. And it's normal to speak about everything I'm passionate about now. Whereas two or three years ago, it wouldn't have been normal is my general understanding.

Tom : 4:25

That's really interesting in a sense, the timing. You've come into a role when, as you say, lots and lots is happening out there in the wider world. So it almost becomes a catalyst for the things that you you've wanted to achieve coming into the role?

Felicity : 4:40

Yeah. And it's enabled, I think, the Extinction Rebellion stuff has really enabled the common sense sort of stuff, and which is all about protecting people's health and about protecting wildlife. People are now able to understand that they can get angry about this now. Because it's really, really so important. And whereas before, certainly from my point of view, I was always very quiet, and didn't speak up. When I worked for the NHS, the amount of plastic that we would use, and the amount of medications that were prescribed rather than focusing on making people healthy in the first place, I was very quiet about it, but now there's an acceptance that it's okay to speak up about these things much more and that it has to be done.

Tom : 5:26

So what changed? I mean, when you when you're in that role before, you know, to move into into a counsellor role is quite a big shift?

Felicity : 5:34

Yeah. And it can be overwhelming. I think what changed was leaving the NHS and that gave me a huge sense of freedom. Previously, I was very much sort of - follow the rules and thought that sort of such a large organisation like - obviously the NHS is amazing - don't get me wrong, but I did hear the NHS sustainability and chap a guy called David Pynchon speaking about how different sort of health services can work differently so, and doctors could be paid for the number of patients that they have that are healthy, rather than being paid for the number of patients that they see that are unhealthy, for example, and listening to that type of thing, just opened my eyes to how actually the world could be run differently. And I suppose leaving the NHS then gave me more time to think about it, and to explore other discussions. Whereas when I was in the NHS, I was so busy, like I was just getting on with the job. And then Greta, for me, has just been hugely helpful the way that she just uses facts and doesn't tend to criticise, she just gets angry, and rightly so, based on knowledge. I tend to try and focus on that if there's any difficult conversations coming up as my way of being able to speak rather than getting irritated or that's what I try to do! And that's helped me enormously as a councillor.

Tom : 7:00

What do you think are the biggest challenges that you have as a counsellor? I mean, you talked a little bit about wanting things to move very quickly when you came in, and perhaps they're not going as fast as you would have liked. What are the biggest barriers to moving more quickly?

Felicity : 7:15

One of the big barriers is government and the way that things are funded, so they they haven't been that proactive in switching funding from harmful activities to sort of green economy jobs, for example. So you sent me a link earlier about Tobias Elwood, and how great it would be to have a cycling and walking link through Bournemouth, which is great and the £2 billion funding that the government has put forward, which is helpful, but at the same time, they've put forward £27 billion to people moving around and private cars. And that's along with sort of 500 times more funding for private car transport. Every year for the last sort of several decades. So the way that things are funded, influences greatly what we do in a council. And so I've been trying to highlight some of these discrepancies, and particularly within transportation, but, but it's hard to, to switch the funding because often it's capital funding, and they like building like, building big things, rather than investing in people. So if, for example, that £27 billion was invested directly in, like, if you walk a mile every day, then you get this amount of money. I sort of think, like, it's quite a different way of thinking. And but it has been one of the limiting factors, I suppose for some of the work that I wanted to do in the council.

Tom : 8:45

You talked about being an optimist, I'm an optimist too! The money that was announced for the for the walking and cycling, and that's the most amount of money that's ever been announced for active travel in the context of that £27 billion thats given to roads. You know, I think cycling is now on the agenda for central government. Is that a fair comment?

Felicity : 9:08

Yes. Yes, it is. Progress. It is definitely progress, I suppose, and hearing about what other countries have been doing and how much they invest in walking and cycling. It's easy to dismiss it as insignificant. It is a huge step forwards. And hopefully, it will quickly ramp up. And then I suppose the other thing that's reassuring about that maybe, well, I just thinking about Heathrow Airport and the success that Friends of the Earth and various campaign groups had to reverse that decision, because it wasn't or hadn't taken into consideration the Paris Agreement and whether this £27 billion pounds for the road building for private cars, whether that has any potential as well, terms of the legal aspect, but it would be great as the government sort of was proactive and chose to lead the way in green economy rather than being forced to do it.

Matt : 10:07

Well, that leads me onto a question, which is, you know, we live in Bournemouth, Christchurch & Poole, so we're BCP Council, where we live is a beautiful place to live. It's a beautiful part of the country. And we've got some fantastic big businesses down here. We've got JP Morgan, Lv, lots of others as well. But do you think we should be doing more to promote 1) the sort of sustainability side and the beauty of our area but also 2) taking a harder line to protect our assets as well to make sure that we don't then have an extra runway at Bournemouth Airport or wherever, you know, that sort of thing?

Felicity : 10:40

Yes. So in terms of keeping businesses here and people wanting to live here, so for example, there are some statistics I can't remember the accurately but we have a huge percentage of our youth that leave town, maybe they come to university here or stay for university here and then go elsewhere. And being able to make our town one of the places or towns, one of the places where people are wanting to stay and continue to work and have families here and grow out here, yes, is a crucial part of some of the vision for what we could achieve, and how to do that whilst keep sort of making even more beautiful and even more healthy. So, for example, sort of imagining, like I find it quite easy to imagine the whole of BCP without private cars, or pretty much the whole area, and just loads of local businesses, an activity centres within each of the 33 different wards, just like loads of sort of villages, I suppose, where there's loads of activities and your meeting, whenever you go out to a cafe, then you pass people on the street that you went to school with or do a sports activity with and like, I can envisage where people are sort of much more involved with sport like local sports. And we could have a games, a BCP Games or something. So whereby sort of each ward is competing against each other, but we're all cycling to these different places or walking or taking the bus.

Tom : 12:18

So this is this idea of sort of 15 minute neighbourhood right? So this 15-20 minutes, everything you you need to access in your life is is close to you?

Felicity : 12:28

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So places like Paris are really looking at how they can design the city this way. And new cities and China as well are realising that that's the way to build new cities, because they don't want this reliance on the private car. And it makes people happier. It makes people healthier, sort of job stability, you know, your neighbours, and it'd be good for business, good for the economy. And yeah, it's just amazing, I can sort of see how why companies and people would then want to stay in this area.

Tom : 12:57

How quickly can we make that happen?

Felicity : 12:59

(laughs)

Matt : 12:59

Well, I also have a question for you on top of that, which is, is that not harkening back to a different age, like where I grew up? Certainly that was exactly like where I grew up. In the town I grew up, if I go back now, it has all been removed. And they're all empty shops, because it's big supermarkets on the outside of town. So now you have to drive to the big supermarket. So, you know, some of this stuff did exist. And we've obviously removed it for the sake of efficiency or for whatever reason. And it's talking about perhaps bringing back some of what we had, or is there also more than what we've had before that you're suggesting?

Felicity : 13:35

Yes, some of it is bringing back what we had, and maybe the community aspect of it and knowing your neighbours and being able to walk safely to school are all great things to be able to sort of bring back into our town that we had before.

Matt : 13:50

Absolutley

Felicity : 13:50

Generally, I think they're pretty common sense that most people would agree with this. As far as there's additional stuff that we have now that we didn't have back then is like the evidence of like what is what is happened when you isolate communities sort of the fact that - oh I don't know the statistics, a huge number of people experienced loneliness. And I think in London, it is it is literally like, 9 out of 10? Rachel Alridge is the person to ask about the statistics. But in terms of like some people living in elderly people living in flats in London, it is too dangerous to cross the road. And so literally, that is what stops them from being able to come out they're flat, to do anything. And they may stay for several days without being able to go out. We now have the data as opposed to the fact that we are able to share data so easily. And with the internet and all the data collection facilities that we have now is able to provide evidence that this isn't great, and hopefully make things better. Which is one of the good things that we have nowadays.

Tom : 14:05

So if we've now got the data, compared to you know, when Matt and I were kids and and that was something that we experienced, What is stopping us from moving more quickly into that vision? I mean, you described it very well, you know, that 15 minute neighbourhood concept where, you know, we've got much more localization, we know our neighbours, we understand, you know, who is around us, we have our support networks, again, we remove the, you know, that feeling of isolation, you know, we've seen a lot of that, I think through, you know, the current situation, you know, I mean, all of a sudden neighbours are reaching out to each other and saying "hello", you know, and actually, you know, swapping phone numbers where perhaps they haven't done that before. "If you need anything, I'm going to the shops, you know, let me know". So, there has as you as you mentioned earlier, a lot of good things have come out of the you know, the current situation, it's how do we capture that you know, as a person with elected power if you like, how do we how do we move these things forward? And what what are the barriers and how we smash them down? I see a lot of people on Twitter, you know, frustrated at the speed in this in the same way that it sounds, you know that you are potentially a little bit frustrated not being able to move things faster. You know, are there things that people can be doing that enable this stuff to happen? All the good things to have come out of the current situation to happen faster? Or is the system so broken that we will just get there when we get there?

Felicity : 16:23

It's a useful question to be asked.

Matt : 16:26

But a difficult one to answer without getting in trouble.

Felicity : 16:29

It covers an awful lot of different assets. For me, a lot of this comes back to how we run our economy. And this idea of sort of making more things, producing more things, going faster, and that is what makes money for our economy. And that's what keeps the economy going. And I think there's huge changes that can happen there or need to happen to really embed how we can live differently. So it's hard to summarise it I suppose. but one thing that came up at one of the walking and cycling initiatives that they did at Waltham Forest, a lady came up to one of the engineers and was like, "Oh, this is great. It now takes me 20 minutes to get to the shops rather than 10 minutes", because she was chatting to so many people. And that disrupts the whole economic model of what is good in terms of the economy, in terms of road engineering and like transportation. The idea is that generally, if you can take 30 seconds off a journey, then that creates a certain amount of economic growth, which is rubbish, or it needs to be rubbish for us to really make some differences. So the other thing that's happened during this COVID-19 that I'm really interested in and would love to be able to explore further and potentially that is something that maybe we could set up a pilot project within BCP for a small area, and is the idea that people are paid for being themselves. So the fact that some people have been furloughed, and therefore have been able to continue to get an income, but do what they not necessarily what they want to do, but it's just a different way of creating an economy, I suppose as long as everybody is paid, then you can get a circulation of wealth and a distribution of money, as opposed to people can still choose where they put their money, but they can suddenly they're free to choose a job that maybe they wouldn't have considered before because it didn't pay well enough to cover the mortgage. Or suddenly they're able to look after their young children, because they really enjoy looking after their young children and would prefer to do that than have to go out to a traditional job. And because of this furloughed money, suddenly they're being paid to do it. And that is very different from how we've ever thought of sort of being paid before. And there was a really exciting paper that came out I think it was in Denmark, possibly 150 academics were talking about how the government should start to roll out universal basic income, which, and this is quite different from anything that we've really experienced in the UK before. So it is it is enough money to live on, basically, rather than any of the benefits systems that sort of have ever been created here. So yeah, the the potential that if everybody in the country was paid to, to live, how would what work would they choose? And how would the world change? And would we be able to look after the world better?

Tom : 19:34

For all the world Felicity, I would be doing exactly the same job that I do now.

Felicity : 19:39

Well, I was wondering that. And I would also say, I absolutely love doing what I'm doing at the moment that my husband works in the construction industry. And at the moment, they're creating beams for a nuclear power plant, which he doesn't agree with. Obviously, if the government decided to invest in renewable energy, then he could be involved in that which will be great. But actually, he'd prefer to be able to work building compost toilets, for example. I mean, if he was actually paid the same amount to build a compost toilet as he was to build a beam for a nuclear plant, like yeah, I don't know I can, I can imagine things would change significantly. And also like really links into valuing looking after our families. So traditionally, women have been the main carriers for children and for elderly adults. And it's always been unpaid. And that just is not taken into consideration in our in our economy. And yeah, so it'd be great to see changes there. And then finally, I had one other thought was you're asking me that question was what would I love to see happen? So there is potential and coming back to transportation again, to do simple changes within my ward and other wards and BCP, everybody's wards so you both can ask your counsellors about this and put forward suggestions. About low traffic neighbourhoods. And so this is whereby you block off quite quiet residential streets halfway along or at one end. And it means that you suddenly, very quickly and very cheaply restrict rat running through that road. And so suddenly, you can imagine that families who have been out cycling with their four and six year old now on the street, or over the last six weeks, they're still able to do that along those type of residential roads. So that type of thing I'm really hoping we will be able to see some change on.

Tom : 21:32

This is really interesting. So this is something I've been thinking about where I live. I've got a really, its not a dramatic rat run, but there is an opportunity to put a massive planter and not you know, stop anyone from travelling but just blocking that path, that road through. I just worry that I'm going to alienate all my neighbours, because I feel like I'm in this headspace of, you know, of doing all these things and you know, writing to my ward councillors and sort of in my bubble on Twitter about all of these things I'm reading, that are going on and I kind of walk outside and I think everyone's driving their cars and blissfully unaware a little bit. So am I gonna alienate my neighbours for a very tiny little stretch of road that, you know, actually maybe quite insignificant in the scheme of the town? Or is this something I should be doing in order to engage, you know, the hundred or so people, you know, in my little inner circle around me to understand what, what these small differences can achieve?

Felicity : 22:34

Yeah

Tom : 22:34

I sbsolutely agree, You know, my children have been outside, they've been playing hopscotch on the pavement, and, you know, for a good few weeks, I've not been as concerned as I was prior to, you know, for them to put a foot in the road.

Felicity : 22:50

Yeah. The they've done a lot of work on this in Waltham Forest and there was a great survey that came out that said, Well, okay, so they were putting in quite a few different schemes. Maybe 40 different schemes but on two of them there was huge opposition to it from the residents on that route. And so they agreed, okay, well, we'll do the other 38. And we went to yours. And by the end of the project, and those two roads actually came back and said, Look, can you please put this in, because they've seen the benefit on the other roads. And they actually had a 98% satisfaction rate, with this whole sort of low traffic neighbourhoods, and it was mostly around, blocking off these rat runs, so that individual residential streets become quiet and safe. So that's really reassuring for me, because I have the same concerns as you, that I'm in the same little bubble. And I'm not talking to enough people. And but when you when you think about it, rationally, I suppose like we're talking about kids being able to get to school safely. And we're talking about quieter streets, being able to hear the birds. Less air pollution, you can still access your home with a car if you need to. But actually, you're opening up your own transport options. So now you can walk and cycle safely. And so there's not that many people that do do the rat runs but they have a huge influence on everybody else. And so rationally, I think it, it does seem a sensible thing to do and a sensible thing to be asking for. And also a resident on Churchill Road in Poole with the with the NHS clapping, people have been really sociable and have sort of been discussing what can be done. And she's been looking at some of the stuff that's been going on in other towns, and she actually managed to get 28 residents to agree that actually they would like to have their road blocked off with a with a modal filter, and she's been absolutely thrilled. And she was scared to have these conversations to begin with. But actually, when people understand what it is, and how much of a difference it can make, then It does seem like a sensible way forward and a good thing to do with the COVID-19. Now that people need to be able to walk and cycle at a two metre distance.

Tom : 24:59

So these low traffic neighbourhoods that we talked about, I mean, does that bring us to, you know, the Transforming Cities Fund? I mean, is there anything in that TCF money that's been awarded to BCP that will enable those kinds of, you know, safer streets? 20's Plenty?

Felicity : 25:19

Yes, there is I am and certainly myself and the Transport Portfolio Holder and a lot of the engineers actually, are really keen on the low traffic neighbourhoods, and it is part of what is in there. The advantage with them is that linking into the COVID-19, you can put in a road block very cheaply. So just with three cones, and a sign saying "Roads Closed to Motor Vehicles" so we can get on and do this work really quickly. And then the transforming cities, money as it comes through, could be used to introduce more permanent planters. And it was felt that that modal filter was a useful one and it was in the right place. Again, for me personally, it's about getting these changes really quickly, because we've already had two motor accidents with serious injuries in BCP over the last week since people have been told by the government to start driving places, and so like it is a public health crisis as well, and the danger on our roads, it's not being treated the same way as the COVID-19. And it's a more chronic public health crisis, but it deserves rapid action. And so, Transforming Cities Funds is over three years, and it will do some good work on on that. But for me, it's about this is also an emergency, and always has been, and that's why I stood as a counsellor because of the dangers for people on roads.

Matt : 26:44

So with the funds that you've got, do you think, you know, a super app to connect the entire area is, is a suitable answer to some of the some of the concerns you've raised and what might be the barriers?

Felicity : 26:56

Can you explain more about what your thinking is in terms of a super app?

Tom : 27:00

In terms of a super app, what is a super app?We live in a world where everyone talks about the mobile phone being the connector for all of the different modes of transport that you might want to take, that don't involve your your car, we sort of, this term mobility as a service - MaaS - is banded around, it's, you know, it's well funded in various geographies around the world. And it's all about, you know, not owning a particular vehicle, but accessing transport on a sort of subscription basis, if you like. So the term comes from the software as a service - SaaS model - where you don't own the software on your computer, you access it via the internet, these kinds of things. So things are more like the subscriptions that you have on Netflix or Sky. You don't buy a DVD anymore, you are renting the film, you're streaming it, you're accessing the content on an ongoing basis and that model works very well for software works. Well for the lots of different content providers in Hollywood and these kinds of things, so there's a natural kind of desire to apply it to everything. And I think that's how we very much ended up with this concept of mobility as a service. And I think the reality is that nowhere has cracked it quite yet. And my opinion on that is that every every geography is different. And every need is very different in the requirements of each town city are varied. But I do think there is a role for technology. And I think we've had some really interesting conversations on this podcast around the idea that, you know, the younger generation are perhaps more interested in owning a really good smartphone, and what that affords them in terms of connectivity over the likes of perhaps previous generations desire to own a car that used to, you know, when I was 17, that was the first thing I wanted to do in order to leave the village that I grew up in You know, there is plenty of evidence now to suggest that the number of people going for their driving licence even interested in owning a car is falling. But, you know, what do we replace that with? You know, we have to replace that with connected services, transport networks that work well together. You know, we were lucky enough in BCP to have a Beryl or public Bike Share scheme. We have two bus operators, and they are fairly progressive in the way that they think about joining these, these sustainable journeys together. What do you think of that? Do you think it isn't technology is gonna solve all of the problems we've got? Do you think technology is gonna make it easy for people to say Actually, I don't need to in my car anymore, and I'm just gonna have a Sky style subscription to it.

Felicity : 29:51

Yeah, I'm not a technology type person. So I prefer to try and get by without technology, but I can see the uses of technology, going back to the 15 minute town, and everything we have to be possible from your doorstep or your day to day activities, I would I would personally love that, and that everybody knew their own streets and knew what what was around and didn't need technology necessarily to be able to do that. But then there may be situations whereby an informal event is put on, and it's really great to be able to share that so that more people are able to access it through technology. For example, if we have got these 15 minute towns, then thinking about advantages and thinking about how you get between from one to another, so for example, to go to the theatre or something, or to the beach, then having having some sort of technology so that you, you know, oh, should I walk that direction or that direction? Because the bus is just about to pass that direction and I'll get there in time because I know how long it will be to walk there, which then that I can get that bus and then switch on to a Bery bike to get to the bed to the beach at the same time as my friend that's coming from the other end of like Christchurch, and work out the best ice cream place to meet at because it's in between the two of you, and the bus routes link in and you'll arrive within 20 minutes, then technology is going to be really helpful. I would have thought and Yes. Will it help us to move away from being car reliant? I think so, because cars are incredibly expensive to run, especially by the time you put in the social and environmental impacts and costs. And there's already places that have got simple levels of technology. I suppose like the the Beryl bikes, it's great to see whether there's one available or not and where they are, and to go to London or be able to use the Beryl bikes in London, or wherever they are, is really great. And but in Vancouver, I knew that the car share app like you can, there's three or four different car share companies and every block you have access to three or four cars that you can go and hire if you want to go out for the weekend into the countryside, and you don't need the car for the rest of the time, but it's just incredibly easy. And you don't have the faff of having to do an MOT or get, no you would still need a driving licence! But you don't need to worry about it breaking down or maintaining your own insurance and, and then like the car often is so such a faff to you. Like if you're thinking about going to the beach, the beach in BCP and worrying about parking. And then when you're on the beach, worrying about when your car parkings up. If you knew that you could just jump on a bus, and actually, oh, there's three buses in the next hour, okay, I'll go for that one or something, then it would make such a difference. Whereas at the moment, you don't have that reliability as opposed and so people are forced to use the car. Yeah, I think that's I think that's what it comes down to at the moment is that for convenience people and safety people are forced to use the car and we just need to switch it so that that isn't the case and a lot of people will then just automatically switch to not using the car. I don't think Copenhagen, like all of the reasons for people cycling and walking is because it's more convenient annd it's easier. It has nothing to do with being green or environmentally friendly or wanting to be healthy. It is just because it's easy and quicker.

Matt : 33:13

Well, I've really enjoyed talking to you, but I'm afraid we're gonna have to stop it there. Thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. Hopefully, we'll we'll all be back at the beach again sometime soon. And I think I can speak to both me and, Tom, when we say we look forward to seeing what you do with your ward and the rest of Bournemouth over the coming weeks and months. Thank you so much for joining us.

Felicity : 33:32

Great. Yeah, that's a challenge for me though. Lovely to come on and speak to you. Thank you for those questions. Great, and you're doing great work at Passeger.

Matt : 33:50

Next week we are sitting down with Alex Hornby, CEO at Transdev Blazefield. We want to find out how the practicalities of social distancing measures will affect operators, drivers and Passengers as the UK begins to slowly start relaxing its lockdown. if you have any questions for ourselves or for Alex you can get in contact on twitter at @makingpassenger Until next time!